Comments on SWOPblogger: Stop Criminalizing Young People

Robby-Well thought out, but I wonder if we can't w...

2007-12-22T08:33:35.416-07:00

Robby-

Well thought out, but I wonder if we can't work on both at the same time? Focusing exclusively on one thing makes you miss everything else. I have that problem at times, tunnel vision. But the anonymous person posting here said that I had made his point, and that is good. We see each other's viewpoints.

I used to debate in high school, so I can be a contentious and argumentative opponent. I just have to remember that not everything is a debate or a call for service - sometimes we work together and don't even have to argue AT ALL. We just have to talk enough to see we are on the same side.

But debating is FUN! Researching a point and having evidence to back you up when someone hits you with an anticipated argument is more relief than fun, but having a piece of evidence they have no response to? That is what wins you debates. But it doesn't make you any friends...

Anyways, I agree with the fact that education needs to be funded better and that kids need an institutional support system that is primarily educational and secondarily there to provide for their safety and security. APS has lots of unsung heroes who also get crap pay - like the maintenance workers and custodians, the educational assistants and the cafeteria workers. What makes any of them worth so little to APS? And if that is the attitude they have toward their workers, then how hard is it to imagine that the APS students are also under-educated by the under-paid under-class of hoi polloi employees?

Our kids, everywhere in Albuquerque and New Mexico, should have a chance to pursue their individual idea of happiness within the law - but they won't be able to FUND that pursuit unless they get a college degree anymore. Sure, some kids with just high school diplomas can qualify for decent paying jobs, but not many.

How do we do that as a society, make sure every kid has a chance to go to and finish college? How do we get ALL of our kids the higher education funding they need to be successful and just pay their bills and comfortably raise some kids of their own?

J. Lopez

Hey Robby -Why is it that some students stay in sc...

2007-12-21T20:36:38.847-07:00

Hey Robby -
Why is it that some students stay in school and some drop out? Why does APS do a great job with the majority of students, but not with others?
Perhaps it's not the school - perhaps it's the student who decides they don't want to take advantage of getting an education or fear going to school because of trouble makers. Those who take advantage of it stay in school - those who don't care, drop out. How is this the district's fault?

Mr. Lopez - I never said zero tolerance. What I did say is that I don't see why having cops on campus criminalizes youth. My daughter has cops on campus, and she's not a criminal.

Young people make decisions to break laws and when they get caught and are found guilty - they earned the title criminal all by themselves.
What you stated, in your post above, reflecting on when you were a school cop - you made my point. Without school cops, these situations, you were involved in would probably go unnoticed and escalate.

My children need cops on their campus, so that they can feel safe to take advantage of public education. I also know several families who pulled their kids out to homeschool because of violence & drugs on campuses everywhere. There are no safe schools anymore.

I wish KIDS would remember that APS is in the business of educating - Instead they are babysitters. If some kids didn't cause trouble on campus maybe everyone could focus on teaching/learning. But until then - APS has to react to situations and protect the population. Tell the troublemakers to shape up and we wont need police.

It starts with the kids. It's their school - their environment. They make it what it is.
Be the change you want to see in the world./Ghandi/

The bottom line on this debate is that APS should ...

2007-12-21T10:56:49.973-07:00

The bottom line on this debate is that APS should be in the business of educating young people and preparing them to be successful participants in our democracy. When the dropout rate is down around 10% instead of 60% and more students are receiving full rides to top tier schools than are joining the military, then I'll entertain the idea of a debate on whether they should have a police force or security or contract with APD or whatever. But APS, sadly, has a long way to go before that day comes.

Draconian rules are fine and dandy until the cops ...

2007-12-20T16:38:13.528-07:00

Draconian rules are fine and dandy until the cops come knocking on YOUR door with no warrant, or tell you that you can't speak your mind or trample some other right just because they can. It is the flip side to kids being out of control - authoritarian tyranny.

Tell you what, if you try to be a little more liberal in your point of view and admit that sometimes kids are stuck in a bad place because of their mere circumstances of birth, I will try to see why you would want a zero tolerance policy on any rule breaking whatsoever.

I was a school cop for years, and people I investigated tried to play the race card and the poverty card all the time, but they still had to see juvenile probation if I listed their names on the report. I gave a lot of breaks, but I also took a lot of people to jail. It depended on the investigation.

If you take away the officer's discretion to decide what to write up, and the DA's discretion on whether or not to prosecute them, egregious injustice can happen because no one is able to consider the totality of the circumstances, everyone just wants blood and a conviction.

And yes, some people are unreedemable sociopaths who should rot in jail. But not everyone deserves that.

I'm so tired of people making excuses for kids who...

2007-12-20T15:39:38.348-07:00

I'm so tired of people making excuses for kids who are trouble makers.
These kids threaten teachers and students, bully the school population and terrorize all. I'm so sorry if it's because of their lack of opportunity - or because they choose not to take school seriously and make something of themselves. This is not the fault of society or even APS.
I'm all for helping these kids (if their willing to take it)- but at some point you need to just get real and hold kids accountable for their actions. Even if it means filling our detention centers or jails.
Kids with criminal records are just that - criminals. That's no one's fault but their own. No one "criminalized" them - no one made them break the law. They chose that path. I'm glad there was a cop around to catch them - whether it was on campus or around town.

Hopelessness and lack of opportunity historically ...

2007-12-20T13:04:32.592-07:00

Hopelessness and lack of opportunity historically lead to high rates of drug abuse, then prostitution and stealing to support that habit. If there is no alternative but crime as a way out of the circumstances due to no opportunity, then education becomes that persons last hope.

If cops behave like Nazis, then we don't want them anywhere, much less schools. I know school yards can be a violent place, and sometimes it is necessary to restrain adults or kids on campus who break the law. But it has to be done in a controlled way that trains to catching the suspect, not giving them brain injuries when it could have been avoided. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty in court.

Neither do I want any APS Security Officer to get his ass kicked. They just need to know they signed on to deal with kids that are difficult and whose brains are still developing. So a little restraint, not a lot. And if that does not work, and you are getting your butt kicked, you whip out the kung fu and karate. But only after you try to use other, lower level of force means to control them.

I am not talking about a guy with a gun walking down the hall shooting people, at that point
the prudent unarmed security officer is gathering people to evade and escape to a safe location. Trying to barricade doors and tell people to jump out the damn window and run in a low crouch to the cops waiting around the nice solid brick bulding, and keep your hands where they can be seen so no friendly fire happens...

I am saying a kid who just had a rough day and is mouthing off doesnt always need a police report on him or her for disorderly conduct. The school really can deal with some things with discipline, not causing a criminal record on a kid just for being pissed off one day.

I don't advocate kids doing drugs to escape reality, but I know it happens. And I don't advocate stealing to avoid hunger, but I know that happens too. Neither do I advocate belonging to a gang(criminalizing by definition) to stay protected and unraped, but I know that happens too.

Increasing opportunity to be educated and succeed for people in any given community will lead to less crime of this sort, that is all. Opportunity lets people pursue happiness better.

How does having a police dept. or even cops on cam...

2007-12-20T06:15:32.288-07:00

How does having a police dept. or even cops on campus "criminalize youth"???
Youth make choices - breaking the law is a choice - consequences are a result of that choice at any age.
Don't tell me that cops are criminalizing youth. They do it to themselves. Taking drugs and putting them into your body is a choice, stealing is a choice, beating the crap or threatening harm on someone is a choice. YOU make little sense to me. Common sense...
And hell yes ... I want them on campus protecting (and catching) our children. Then I'll never have to say "where were the cops when they need them?"
Stop making excuses for kids who should know right from wrong - but CHOOSE to do wrong. Stop making them out as victims. It doesn't help society to coddle these kids.

In most big cities, there is still a cop on campus...

2007-12-19T11:04:48.109-07:00

In most big cities, there is still a cop on campus at high schools most of the time, even if the school district does not have its own stand-alone cop shop. I don't think that will ever change.

But a change in what school security and safety people do has to happen. APS needs to look at all the safety regulations that the state and federal government issue and start following them. Make sure high school chemistry labs are safe. Investigate and remediate causes of injuries like slips, trips and falls. Help train kids on how to survive a tornado or a flash flood.

The other big area that young people might want to influence the School Board on is the offical use of force by school security officers. The cops that work for APS have guns, they use a police use of force model. But I am talking about the unarmed ones, they should get more training and pay and get specific instructions on what is allowable and prohibited.

Why does APS Police need Body Armor? I worked security, unarmed, at a charter school. Some kids tried to run me over, then beat me up pretty good. The body armor really helped protect me from the worst of the body shots; it was my head that was vulnerable though.

Why should APS Security have access to criminal databases? Well, the security that work at night or even during the day on campus should be able to check if someone who they are talking to has a warrant. They should also be able to check if someone is a child molester, a few other things like that.

Private Investigators sell this type of information on the internet, so I don't see why APS Security couldn't contract with one of them to check if someone is a registered child molester or is wanted for murder.

They don't need to be cops to get the information they need, many school security shops around the country operate without police powers just fine. And some have cops that work for the school district like in Los Angeles.

Kids in school should be safe, and the people APS hires to do security should help with that, not be an obstacle to education and opportunity. I think APS Security people need to be tough but not trained like swat team members.

They should give them Verbal Judo and Non-Violent Intervention Training, and pay for some martial arts lessons for when things get really hairy. And they should know the karate is for when you are getting your ass really kicked, not for hauling someone in for ditching.